Posts by Aaron Eldridge

2

"I Was a Teenage Jehovah's Witness" by Nate Merritt

by Aaron Eldridge in

jw
friends

i would like a copy of this book, but it seems that all websites are out of stock and the publisher is out of business.

if anyone has one and would like to sell it, please send me a pm.

thanks..

Aaron Eldridge

I would like a copy of this book, but it seems that all websites are out of stock and the publisher is out of business. If anyone has one and would like to sell it, please send me a pm. Thanks.

74

Do you have a favourite scripture?

by Ucantnome in

jw
friends

i have two.. luke 4.

16 he went to nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom.

he stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet isaiah was handed to him.

Aaron Eldridge

Here are two articles about the word and its usage. Very interesting read.

2 Corinthians 2:17 - "which corrupt the word of God"

"For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."

The majority of modern versions render this as "peddle" or "sell the word of God for profit" instead of "corrupt the word of God." The Greek word kapeleuontes does carry the meaning of a peddler or retailer. However, it connotes one who sells with deceit, a corrupter. Dr. Walter Bauer states that the word came to mean "to adulterate." [1] Dr. Joseph Thayer agrees, noting, "But as peddlers were in the habit of adulterating their commodities for the sake of gain . . . (the word) was also used as synonymous with to corrupt, to adulterate." [2] Likewise, Dr. Gerhard Kittle states that kapeleuontes, "also means 2. to falsify the word (as the kapelos purchases pure wine and then adulterates it with water) by making additions . . . This refers to the false Gospel of the Judaizers." [3]

The early church fathers understood the verse to refer to those who corrupt God's word. Athanasius (373 AD) wrote, "Let them therefore be anathema to you, because they have 'corrupted the word of truth'." [4] Gregory of Nazianzus (390 AD) alludes to 2 Corinthians 2:17, Isaiah 1:22 and Psalm 54:15, using the word "corrupt":

And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as the many, able to corrupt the word of truth, and mix the wine, which maketh glad the heart of man, with water, mix, that is, our doctrine with what is common and cheap, and debased, and stale, and tasteless, in order to turn the adulteration to our profit . . . [5]

Both translations are possible. But in light of its historical and contextual usage, the word corrupt is much more likely. Regardless, it is clearly not a translational error. Dr. James R. White, noted Christian apologist and author, makes an interesting claim concerning this verse. He writes, "Surely if the KJV translators were alive today they would gladly admit that 'peddle' is a better translation than 'corrupt,' and would adopt it themselves." [6] If this is true, how would one explain the notes of Dr. John Bois, one of the translators of the KJV? In his notes on 2 Corinthians 2:17, Dr. Bois writes, "Ibid. v. 17. kapeleuontes ] [being a retail dealer, playing tricks, corrupting] i.e. notheuonetes [adultering]. kapelos is derived apo tou kallunein ton pelon [from glossing over lees] by corrupting and adultering wine." [7] Apparently, the translators of the KJV were aware of the meaning of this word.

[1] Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament And Other Early Christian Literature, 403.

[2] Joseph Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament (Grand Rapids: Baker Book, 1977 edition), 324-325.

[3] Kittle, Vol. III., 605.

[4] Athanasius, Apologia Contra Arianos (Defence Against The Arians), III:49.

[5] Gregory Nazianzus, Oratition 2 ("In Defence Of His Flight To Pontus"), 46.

[6] White, 114.

[7] John Bois, Translating For King James, trans. by Ward Allen. Vanderbilt University Press, 1969), 51.

and one more....

"For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God" -NKJV

It's been said facetiously that a good definition of the KJV-only position is that any Bible that doesn't have 'corrupt' in 2 Corinthians 2:17, is. While I wouldn't go so far as to say that, I would like to critically evaluate the ways that kapeyleuonte s has been translated into English.

To begin with, kapeyleuontes is a hapax legomenon, that is, a word only used once in the New Testament.
Thus it is difficult to translate without having any other context to help determine meaning. This is some of what the B-A-G lexicon has under this word:
kapeleuo . trade in, peddle, huckster (of retail trade), Isaiah 1:22 also fig. adulterate (so Vulgate, Syriac, Gothic). . .

Let's look at Isaiah 1:22 as literally translated from the Septuagint and the Vulgate:

LXX: Your silver is worthless, thy wine merchants mix the wine with water.

Vulgate: Thy silver is turned into dross: thy wine is mingled with water.

OK, so the LXX is making a passive into an active and supplying the subject, which has been translated into English as 'merchants'. But what is being emphasized in this verse is not the act of selling the wine, but the act of illicitly diluting (i.e. corrupting) it before the sale. Thus from this use of kapeyloi in the Greek OT, we see the connotation of selling under false pretenses. Moving on now to 2 Corinthians 2:17, we look again at the Vulgate:

"For we are not as many, adulterating the word of God"

How was this translated in the earliest English Bible? Let's check Wycliffe (All spelling is updated):

"For we be not as many, that do adultery by the word of God."

OK, Wycliffe misunderstood the connotation of adulterantes here as adultery rather than adulteration.

Better move on to Tyndale, who had the advantage of being able to read both Erasmus' eclectic Greek text and his Latin translation & commentary--as well as Luther's translation into German based on Erasmus. He translated:

"For we are not as many are, which chop and change with the word of God"

See the return to the idea of 'adulterate'; Luther had:

"For we are not as the many, which falsify the word of God"

This meaning continued to be carried forward in subsequent revisions of the English New Testament.

Coverdale 1535 left Tyndale as he found it, apparently using an English idiom of the 16th century:

"For we are not as many are, which chop & change with the word of God"

Geneva 1560 changed the wording to reflect the 'merchant' connotation, but left the 'corrupt' connotation in a footnote:

"For we are not as many, which *make merchandise of the word of God" (* that is, preach for gain, & corrupt it to serve men's affections )

Bishops' 1568 removed the footnote, but--significantly--returned to the wording of Tyndale:
"For we are not as many are, which chop & change with the word of God "

The KJV 1611 left out the footnote, but incorporated its meaning into the text, giving a different shade of meaning in a new footnote:

"For we are not as many which *corrupt (* deal deceitfully with ) the word of God"

In all of these English versions we see the difficulty of fully expressing the full connotation of kapeleuo . It consists of:

1) Taking a pure product and adulterating it with some foreign element;
2) Passing it off as the real thing;
3) In order to realize dishonest gain.

Thus Paul is referring to other preachers who
1) Take the word of God & mix into it corrupting elements;
2) Pass this 'new and improved' gospel off as genuine;
3) In order to realize some profit from their audience.

The charge the KJV-only people are making is that this exactly describes what the purveyors of the New Modern Versions are doing--and that they are covering their tracks by mistranslating the verse.

To their credit, I don't think the Modern Versions do any worse of a job at covering the full meaning of kapeyleuontes than earlier ones did:

RV 1881-1901: "For we are not as the many, *corrupting (* or making merchandise of ) the word of God"
RSV 1946-1973: "For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word"
NASB 1960-1995: "For we are not like many, *peddling (*corrupting ) the word of God"
NIV 1973-2006: "Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit"
NRSV 1989: "For we are not peddlers of God's word like so many"

So we see that regardless of the version, only element #1 or #3 comes across in translation. If we we include footnotes, RV has both, and only NASB has element #2--but at the expense of omitting #3.

Jay P. Green suggests 'hawking' which carries well the idea of #3 and lesser so #2, but gives no indication of #1. The Strong's Lexicon has:
--from kapelos (a huckster); to retail, i.e. (by implication) to adulterate (figuratively): corrupt.

The most succinct way of combining the information found in all of the above versions is:

"For we are not like many--hawking an adulterated version of God's word purely for profit."

Ouch. That does strike a bit close to home, in view of the copyright protection carried by all the modern versions, each of which, despite their copyrighted distinctions, claims the title 'The Holy Bible

1

great quote from Dallas Willard about mind control

by Aaron Eldridge in

jw
friends

i thought that everyone may enjoy this from dallas willard's book divine conspiracy,.

"any being that has say over nothing is no person at all.

we only have to imagine what that would be like to see that this is so.

Aaron Eldridge

I thought that everyone may enjoy this from Dallas Willard's book Divine Conspiracy,

"Any being that has say over nothing is no person at all. We only have to imagine what that would be like to see that this is so. Such 'persons' would not even be able to command their own body or their own thoughts. They would be reduced to completely passive observers who count for nothing, who make no difference.
The sense of having some degree of control over things is now recognized as a vital factor in both mental and physical health and can make the difference between life and death in those who are seriously ill.
Anyone who has raised a child, or has even supervised the work of others, knows how important it is to let them do it- whatever 'it' may be- and do so as soon as that is practically feasible. Obviously, having a place of rule goes to the very heart of who we are, of our integrity, strength, and competence.
By contrast, attacks to our personhood always take the form of diminishing what we can do or have say over, sometimes up to the point of forcing us to submit to what we abhor. In the familiar human order, slaves are at the other end of the spectrum from Kings. Their bodies and lives are at the disposal of another. Prisoners are, in most cases, several degrees above slaves. And, as the 20th century has taught us, thought control is worst of all. It is the most heinous form of soul destruction, in which even our own thoughts are not really ours. It reaches most deeply into ther substance."

20

Young adults who are disfellowshipped/disassociated and houselessness?

by Aaron Eldridge in

jw
friends

i was wondering if anyone knew of any individuals that became houseless when they were disfellowshipped or disassociated themselves.

i know that i had to move out of my house within a few months after i disassociated myself, but i believe that if i did not have anywhere to go my parents would not have kicked me out of the house.. .

Aaron Eldridge

I was wondering if anyone knew of any individuals that became houseless when they were disfellowshipped or disassociated themselves. I know that I had to move out of my house within a few months after I disassociated myself, but I believe that if I did not have anywhere to go my parents would not have kicked me out of the house.

5

Would anyone still 'in' be kind enough to access a WT Library Cd for me plz?

by Lozhasleft in

jw
friends

if anyone could access one for me i would pay postage charges to uk...i'm not sure how else i can access it...all download links have been blocked it seems.

i need it for referencing for my uni project on the holocaust.. loz x.

Aaron Eldridge

I have the. 2008 wt cd which is great because it goes back to the fifties. Unfortunately having an older copy really limits all the great material that has come out in the past few years, such as the overlapping generations and the greater control of the governing body over the little flock. If there is a link that I can follow or anyone know how I can get a copy please pm me. Thanks!!

30

Cults - Steven Hassan's BITE model.

by ithinkisee in

combatting cult mind control : the #1 best-selling guide to protection, rescue, and recovery from destructive cults.

by steven hassan.

isbn: 0892813113

Aaron Eldridge

back to the top

14

How do the Jehovah's Witnesses understand the narrative of the Bible/themselves?

by Aaron Eldridge in

i'm trying to get my head around a basic overview of how the jehovah's witnesses understand the narrative flow of scripture and their own history within that.

to me this provides a good general framework from which most of their theology flows.

this is a brief sketch that i have done off the top of my head.

Aaron Eldridge

Here is my updated outline. Thank you everyone for the feedback.

Story of the Bible for Jehovah's Witnesses
Hebrew Scriptures
Earth created as Paradise; man is intended to live forever, care for the Garden of Eden eventually transforming the Earth into a paradise through procreation.
Man sins. God punishes man by death and death becomes inherited.
God puts in place a temporary sacrificial system to atone for sins.
God chooses a people, the nation of Israel.
Christian Greek Scriptures
Christ came as another perfect man/'Second Adam' to atone for the original sin of man.
As God's son, though inferior, Jesus is able to reveal/reflect the character of God.
Israel rejects God by killing his son, thus God has to choose a new people.
God welcomed in 144,000 people to be his new chosen ones, a.k.a. Spiritual Israel.
When that number is filled there will be others that come alongside that are not in the new covenant but are allowed to be God's friends through association with the 144,000.
Post - Biblical History
The early church fell into apostasy after the death of apostles.
The majority of the church adopts pagan teachings, such as the Trinity/eternal soul/existence of hell, and further distance is put between God and the church.
God sets a time when he will once again have a clear organization on earth. This will coincide with the return of Christ which will mark the 'beginning of the end'.
1914 Christ rule in heaven began, the Kingdom is established. The beginning of the end started.
1918 God chooses a people, the Intl. Assoc. of Bible Students/ aka Jehovah's Witnesses.

Near Future
Armageddon/ Great Tribulation/ Judgment of Mankind.
1000 year rule of Christ begins, Satan is bound.
Resurrection for the Jehovah's Witnesses first and then others that have died throughout history.
Earth reworked into Paradise. A preaching work continues to those that are resurrected whom have never heard the Jehovah's Witness message.
1000 years ends with Satan being released.
Jesus gives up his spot on the throne and Jehovah takes over ruling.
Final tempting of mankind by Satan, majority of man apostatizes.
Final judgment of mankind; Satan is destroyed and apostates are annihilated.
Survivors live forever on Paradise Earth.

14

How do the Jehovah's Witnesses understand the narrative of the Bible/themselves?

by Aaron Eldridge in

i'm trying to get my head around a basic overview of how the jehovah's witnesses understand the narrative flow of scripture and their own history within that.

to me this provides a good general framework from which most of their theology flows.

this is a brief sketch that i have done off the top of my head.

Aaron Eldridge

@ Extractor

I wouldn't give you as clear as an answer or some other people on this form could. You probably would do better starting your own topic, that way it would be more visible and you would get some responses. Also, there have been plenty of topics about Michael/Jesus in the past, so you may want to use this sites search function to look at past post

14

How do the Jehovah's Witnesses understand the narrative of the Bible/themselves?

by Aaron Eldridge in

i'm trying to get my head around a basic overview of how the jehovah's witnesses understand the narrative flow of scripture and their own history within that.

to me this provides a good general framework from which most of their theology flows.

this is a brief sketch that i have done off the top of my head.

Aaron Eldridge

@ N.Drew

Thanks for your comments, the clarification helped. I went and looked up a recent watchtower article which I believe it marries the two ideas together, granted there is more emphasis placed on what you said. Definitely an error on my part and I sincerely appreciate your help! Here is the article below:

*** w08 4/1 pp. 10-11 Will Our Earth Ever Be Destroyed? ***

God's Purpose for the EarthIt was never God's purpose that the earth be abused and polluted as it is today. Instead, God created the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, and placed them in a beautiful garden. Of course, their Paradise home would not have remained beautiful on its own. God assigned them "to cultivate it and to take care of it." (Genesis 2:8, 9, 15) What delightful and satisfying work God gave to our once perfect parents!

But God's purpose for the earth involved much more than caring for that original garden. He wanted the whole earth to be transformed into a paradise. That is why God gave this command to Adam and Eve: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth."-Genesis 1:28.

14

How do the Jehovah's Witnesses understand the narrative of the Bible/themselves?

by Aaron Eldridge in

i'm trying to get my head around a basic overview of how the jehovah's witnesses understand the narrative flow of scripture and their own history within that.

to me this provides a good general framework from which most of their theology flows.

this is a brief sketch that i have done off the top of my head.

Aaron Eldridge

@ band on the run

Yeah, that was a pretty big oversight on my part. Thanks for the suggestion.